Poker Clan

---

Post Edited (Jon) : 1/19/2007 1:09:13 AM GMT

[quote="Jon"]This is “the case” that is going to decide the fate of online gaming in the United States. Two Canadians, whom founded a company on the Isle of Man, have been drafted to defend our freedoms from our corrupt government. They deserve all the support that we can give them.

Andrew, it is not going away by itself. It is not just going to blow over and government will forget about it so we can all go about our merry way playing poker in our underwear. People are not going to jump through hoops to make deposits into online card rooms. The new law and attitude of our puritain government has burst the bubble. They are shuting it down, it is just a question of time. Your only hope is that the presucution of the neteller guys fails, with precedence that overturns the law.
The way that many of the card rooms laid down and died without a fight, was a good indication of the industries willingness to test this law. Now two guys with big money, associated with a lot of people with a lot of money at stake, have been arrested. It is the best thing that would could happen with this law. It means someones got to fight and fight hard or they are going to jail for a very long time. You can bet (dont do it online) that these guys are going to go beyond just defending the current charges, they are going to take it the full measure so that they don't get arrested again.
You may have noticed if you read a few of the articles out there, that the NTG (Neteller guys) were not arrested under the new statue passed in late september, they were busted for money laundering and violating the wire act. The things they were arrested for were before the new law, were essentially the same charges that the busted a couple of offshore sport betting sites for. The government is betting the new law expands these definitons of money laundering, RICCO stuff (you know Organized crime, what they can call the mob), terroist activities and a whole gambit of cluster *** bullshit, so that they can really threaten the people engaged in the business. If the governments wins against these guys, it will shut online gambling down completly in the US. You will not be able to get a penny in an envelope to an online poker room. If you get fancy and work out ways to get deposits to a card room, you and everyone involved in your end play will be at huge legal risk.
Yeah it is good, because this needs to be resolved, this is the one to watch. This case will either put the gevernment in check, or totally open the flood gates for the destruction of online gaming in the US. The main point is that the issue needs to be forced else poker would just be dieing a slow death anyway.

You said:
the government is apparently somewhat determined to enforce this law
They are not determined at all to enforce this law. The government is determined to end online gaming and this law, is just one piece of it. The NTG's were not charged under the new law. The new law is simply a sturctural member of the US governments assualt on online gaming.

[quote="Andrew"]
I don't think the Neteller thing is good news in any way. Even if these guys win the case, the government is apparently somewhat determined to enforce this law. I almost hope they lose the case, so the government can say "OK good, got 'em" and we can just keep playing musical ewallets rather than see the government say something like "Hmm, maybe we should start blocking IPs since this isn't working."

Say the NTG lose the case. What exactly do you think will happen next?

What will be so hard about people making a click2pay account? A couple years ago nobody knew what Neteller was. Banks started rejecting credit cards, and the websites hyped up this "Neteller" thing, and people got used to it. Do you think no ewallet will take the chance? They'll just leave that market share sitting on the counter?

Nothing changed over night. All that changed was that the NTG decided to cross the arbitrary line. Now Neteller decided to protect themselves. I don't see any reason for other companies to feel a need to stop doing business, as long as they're willing to keep their officials outside of the Land of the Free (:p). Why exactly do you think they'll give up the market share? Do you think the U.S. Army is going to invade their country and arrest them? These sites know that they're doing things the U.S. government considers illegal. Adding legal precedence is certainly not a good thing, but it will not be enough to make every friggin' ewallet run away from the market share. Hell, Neteller is fucking publicly traded and they stuck in there until the arrests were made.

The government is determined to end online gaming and this law, is just one piece of it. The NTG's were not charged under the new law. The new law is simply a sturctural member of the US governments assualt on online gaming.

You are aware that Harrah's has donated almost $50K in campaign finances to Frist, right? Keep in mind, the government is run by human beings. It's not a magic wand that can just point a finger and do as it pleases. "The government" probably has no clear idea what exactly it wants to do. But to whatever extent it has a clear vision, I would guess that vision is most likely to regulate the industry and allow the big corporations (like Harrah's) to be in the game.

I'd like to qualify my opinions by saying that I really haven't been following this too closely. I don't feel strongly that I'm right and Jon is wrong. The stuff I'm saying is basically my off the cuff assessment. Jon's posts, while probably more substantive than mine, leave me with logical gaps to fill. Hopefully for the sake of poker, Jon does not have good answers to the questions I asked.

[quote="Andrew"]
Say the NTG lose the case. What exactly do you think will happen next?
My guess is that the US attorney General will start issuing warrents for other executives at other proxy services, perhaps online gaming executives. Then perhaps failing to arrest these people will start extradiction processes with countires we have extradiction treaties with.


What will be so hard about people making a click2pay account? A couple years ago nobody knew what Neteller was. Banks started rejecting credit cards, and the websites hyped up this "Neteller" thing, and people got used to it. Do you think no ewallet will take the chance? They'll just leave that market share sitting on the counter?

Basically yep, the US will go after them. Can they get em is another question, who knows.

Nothing changed over night. All that changed was that the NTG decided to cross the arbitrary line. Now Neteller decided to protect themselves. I don't see any reason for other companies to feel a need to stop doing business, as long as they're willing to keep their officials outside of the Land of the Free (:p). Why exactly do you think they'll give up the market share? Do you think the U.S. Army is going to invade their country and arrest them? These sites know that they're doing things the U.S. government considers illegal. Adding legal precedence is certainly not a good thing, but it will not be enough to make every friggin' ewallet run away from the market share. Hell, Neteller is fucking publicly traded and they stuck in there until the arrests were made.

I dont know if you are missing this point or not, but the US has succedded in creating an enviorment, with the downfall of Neteller, that is not safe for online poker players. Or you going to put your money through a proxy you know nothing about? Maybe, but will you put as much as you did before, will others? No, the market is screwed, it is now small time, the money supply is gone. It is not coming back unless this law goes away, this law is not going away on its own. Also note, the US can go after these new proxies one at a time. They will be able to intercept mail to them, they will be able to block wire transfers to them. Virtually any transaction to a proxy that originates in US territory can be stopped. There is not going to be a US market for these new proxies to get at. I know you think that you will be able to get around all this, someway, and perhaps you will. But others will not, those others you have been beating regularly, and if enough of you do, the government can if they win against the NTG's, they will be able to easily expand there powers of enforcement, without any new law written, to include players. IT is IMHO critical to the future of online poker that the NTG's walk away from this with the lawyers sueing the gov for damages. If the government win this case you can kiss goodbye any possibility of new legeslation that would make online poker taxed and regulated. If the government losses, there are no gurantess, but a lot more things like regualtion become more likely. (third failed law to ban online gambling is a charm)

I had hoped from day one that neteller would be the one to take this issue the full legal measure, they seemed the most logical choice after all the publicly traded gaming sites folded thier hands, and the others dont give a *** becasue they are picking up new market share. I think it sucks that the AG did not do this in a civilized manner, but I am gald that the issue is now going to be tested, and I am really glad that it is a large company that has the resources to take the full measure is the one in the hot seat.

The government is determined to end online gaming and this law, is just one piece of it. The NTG's were not charged under the new law. The new law is simply a sturctural member of the US governments assualt on online gaming.

You are aware that Harrah's has donated almost $50K in campaign finances to Frist, right? Keep in mind, the government is run by human beings. It's not a magic wand that can just point a finger and do as it pleases. "The government" probably has no clear idea what exactly it wants to do. But to whatever extent it has a clear vision, I would guess that vision is most likely to regulate the industry and allow the big corporations (like Harrah's) to be in the game.

Um maybe, that is a possibility, that it is a tactic that will lead to regulation. If I was making a bet on it I would bet not.

I've been out of the loop for a while, and didn't realize Neteller was going down. So, what does that mean if you have money in an account there? I just noticed that a withdrawal I posted on 1/16 is still pending. Admittedly, it is very small money compared to what you guys play with every day, but am I just screwed out of this money? Also, I have some in other sites that I deposited with Neteller that I guess I won't be able to withdraw to there. I guess I'll have to open a Click2pay account...

Naw...your money is safe. Your withdrawal is likely pending because of the logjam of withdrawals. But yes you will have to reroute your money that is currently onsite. -Than


http://content.neteller.com/content/en/member_businessupdate.htm

Yeah, I read the "US Member Update." It's the "circumstances beyond our control....trus us" line that makes me nervous. I hope it's just a logjam. The alarmist in me sees these guys going" heck, I'm going to jail anyway, might as well go bury the cash somewhere..." Maybe Dan Brown will write a book about it, then Oliver Stone will do the movie.

[quote="Jon"]This is “the case” that is going to decide the fate of online gaming in the United States. Two Canadians, whom founded a company on the Isle of Man, have been drafted to defend our freedoms from our corrupt government. They deserve all the support that we can give them.

Say the NTG lose the case. What exactly do you think will happen next?

What will be so hard about people making a click2pay account? A couple years ago nobody knew what Neteller was. Banks started rejecting credit cards, and the websites hyped up this "Neteller" thing, and people got used to it. Do you think no ewallet will take the chance? They'll just leave that market share sitting on the counter?

Nothing changed over night. All that changed was that the NTG decided to cross the arbitrary line. Now Neteller decided to protect themselves. I don't see any reason for other companies to feel a need to stop doing business, as long as they're willing to keep their officials outside of the Land of the Free (:p). Why exactly do you think they'll give up the market share? Do you think the U.S. Army is going to invade their country and arrest them? These sites know that they're doing things the U.S. government considers illegal. Adding legal precedence is certainly not a good thing, but it will not be enough to make every friggin' ewallet run away from the market share. Hell, Neteller is fucking publicly traded and they stuck in there until the arrests were made.

The government is determined to end online gaming and this law, is just one piece of it. The NTG's were not charged under the new law. The new law is simply a sturctural member of the US governments assualt on online gaming.

You are aware that Harrah's has donated almost $50K in campaign finances to Frist, right? Keep in mind, the government is run by human beings. It's not a magic wand that can just point a finger and do as it pleases. "The government" probably has no clear idea what exactly it wants to do. But to whatever extent it has a clear vision, I would guess that vision is most likely to regulate the industry and allow the big corporations (like Harrah's) to be in the game.